Sick of so-called tuners and tuningshops

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Sick of so-called tuners and tuningshops

Postby capske » Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:45 am

Hi guys,


I have a Fiat Bravo 198 1.9Jtdm 16v with 150 hp original.
Because i'm not confident at tuning (everybody his job and specialty), I went to a renound tuning shop in my country.
I heared from a lot of people they do a really good job.

I went over there and tuned my car with the original turbo.
Instead of tuning to 180hp as there stage 1 announced, they tuned it to 193hp. So i was happy.
The car was really powerfull in low revs and pulled like crazy.

After a couple of months a friend of mine drove it and even though i asked him not to put it in 6th gear (difficult gearbox), he tried and but it back in 4th and overreved. I immediattely felt afterwards that the turbo took a hit.

After a while the turbo started to die, so I looked to replace it.
I found a shop that could provide me a hybrid turbo that could raise the power to 230hp with stock engine.

I baught the turbo, mounted it and went back to the shop.
I payed again for having it remapped with that turbo. Results where very nice. 223,3 hp on the rolling road, but a bit smokey between 1500 and 2500 rpm.

They asked to test and report back. The smoke could get better after 500km driving.
That was not the case. Also i noticed better acceleration (between 1500 and 2500 rpm) when dosing the thottle instead of flooring it.

I went back, explained it and got as answer that this is normal with a hybrid turbo.
After a lot of explaining on my behalf while letting them have a testdrive and really letting them feel it (when taking the gas back between 1500 & 2500 there was a point where you felt the car pull better then at full throttle), they where willing to modify the mapping again.

They did a little modification which gave a better result and gave me more power below 2500, but i still had a lot of smoke.

So because they are not very experienced with that kind of turbo and i'm still not confided that the tuning is optimal, I wanted to investigate the tuning myself. I tried to get the original file written back to my car, but they just wanted to modifiy the mapping again, and where reluctant to write the original file back.
Because I don't want to be there testsubject i looked elsewhere for a similar original file.


Now when comparing the original and the modified files, I think I start to understand why the car was so smokey and the acceleration up to 2500rpm whas not so good.

Let me first explain the acceleration:
when full throttling, you feel like the mixture is not good, there is to much of something, I suppose injection (black smoke). Once you hit 2500rpm, you suddenly get 2.9bar of boost which clears all the unburnt diesel and gives a big puff of smoke but an enormous acceleration.

When dosing the throttle you get a smooth ride and much better acceleration.

So when compairing the files I noticed that the desired boost whas set 2900mbar from 1500 rpm up to the red.
With logging software I modified the desired boost up to the actual boost from 1500 to 2500 that the turbo could give at those given rpm's.

That made the ride much much smoother but i noticed the acceleration whas less.
I raised the desired between those rpm's with 0.2 above the actual boost and that gave again better acceleration without that smouthered sensation.
I now have much more linear acceleration and not that kick in the back at 2500 rpm.

Because I'm no pro i didn't modify anything else, so I still have the black smoke issue.
I'm looking at injection and timing, but that's not easy material, I read a lot of posts, I understand a bit, but not enough to modify it myself, but enough to understand that that part of my tuning got messed up.

Could someone give it a look and help or assist me to rectify this?
If someone could help me get to the 230hp that I should be able to get with this turbo I would be very thankfull.

I'm willing to do it myself and learn to do it decently, but there are so many posts on the forum and the search engine is not optimal.
There are also to many contradictry responses on some posts that it's not very clear what is right.

If someone could point me to the good posts and threads where everything i explained decently that would be awesome.

I'm adding:
- The original File I got Online: "Fiat_Bravo_1.9_150PS_55207104_0281013580_386317"
- The "Original file of my car" that i created with the original file i got online: "WinOLS (My Bravo back to Ori conversion) - 386317)"
- The 2 versions of the file the shop made: "Stage 2 V1 & V2"
- The version where I lowered the boost almost equal as the actual boost and where I added a Launch Control
- A mappack for this ecu


I hope I'm going to get some feedback on this and not only a lot of download of my files and no response.

Thank you in advance!
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Re: Sick of so-called tuners and tuningshops

Postby Shooting » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:38 pm

Which file is your original stage1 tune with original turbo

wbr

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Re: Sick of so-called tuners and tuningshops

Postby capske » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:23 pm

Sorry I don't have the stage 1 tuning file with the Original turbo.
I only have the Stage 2 with the hybrid or bigger turbo and the "Original" file i recreated from an original file with same hw and sw, but no stage 1 tuning...

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Re: Sick of so-called tuners and tuningshops

Postby RPM freak » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:10 am

1. I really hope that the tuners from the renowned tuning shop in your country were drunk when they were making your files, because the files are pure % tune. They did 12% on SOI, 6% on Rail pressure, 11% Injection duration, IQ limiters set to 100mm^3, Main TL set to 450Nm from 2000RPM to the end, boost up to 1.9bar.

2. What is the specification of the new hybrid turbo? Compressor and turbine wheel. Without knowing this spec you can not just pump the boost to the sky and hope for 230hp.

3. To lower your smoke set the Injection duration to ORI and set lambda maps to 1.15 then do a lot of reading on the forum and you will understand how bad is your tune.

4. To pass 223hp you must recalibrate TL to more than 450Nm.

There are only 2 products to make the universe work properly - Duct tape and WD40. If it moves and it shouldn't - Duct tape. If it doesn’t move and it should - WD40. Everything else is just stuff.
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Re: Sick of so-called tuners and tuningshops

Postby ceecee » Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:03 pm

It's funny how "oficial tuners" can do money with shits like that, about "shop stg1 v2".

It needs full redone but first you need to know your new turbo specs. Are you sure it support 1.9 bar? It's your work now.

Here is for you my little help, it's 2 fast securized versions from "shop stg1 v2" (assuming turbo can do that boost).
first is with your lambda maps.
second is with lambda maps updated.If smoke between 1000-2500rpm then you can mod it or vnt etc.

Some limiters back to stock+mod (it's risky to cancel temps or mfsc limiters) and others maps with smoother demand. Injection times done for 95mm3.

Rail and SOI untouched. You can do it and actually it won't broke anything. You need to do logs and calc injection times etc.

VNT the same, do logs and finetune it.

If you have M32 gearbox be carefully with torque.

I don't trust your files checksum, my files were done and CHK from original "Fiat_Bravo_1.9_150PS_55207104_0281013580_386317" + "shop stg1 v2" subversion, so if you has writed some file ok use my maps data but in your last good writed file.

BDM always is better to recover.
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Jetronic Turbo Diesel 8v stage1+
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Re: Sick of so-called tuners and tuningshops

Postby capske » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:18 pm

Hi guy's,

Thank you so much for your feedback!

As previously stated: i really don't know much about tuning. That's why put my faith in a shop that seeing there reputation, i assumed was good.

The reason of the the title of the post is obvious now i suppose. Sadly it's not the first experience with apparently bad tunings from companies.

My previous car (Laguna 2.0 Dci 150) was done in another shop. There i went back because i sometimes had an exhaust gas smell in the cabin (in retrospective: could have been the dpf regeneration that was active, but not normal). The guy didn't even look at the mapping and stated it wasn't due to the tuning. I had it put back original to test and had no problem.

I started to do a little research, bought some equipment and went to a sponsor-shop from another ecu-forum "ecu..........".
Put it on the car, less powerful but no strange quirks or other. Out of curiousity i posted the file, and also lot of bad comments. I then got a company car and got rid of that car.

So now, on this car i hoped to really have a good tuning because of the shops reputation, but another disappointed.

When i bought the turbo i asked specs, but didn't got a lot of info. I'll ask again and insist. I can measure the the inlets and outlets of the turbo but not the compressor wheel... From wat i read with i could read with multiecuscan (Fiat software) even with the boost set to 2900, i see readings up to 2999.

The gearbox is indeed an M32, so i know they don't like a lot of torque and that's also a reason why they limited the torque in the shop. But the torque difference between their stage 1 (192hp) and stage 2 was only i think 10Nm and later in the rpm's.

I work long days so i don't have a lot of spare time, but i'm really convinced it's time to put energy in to this so i really appreciate your feedback.

Also thank you for the file you posted. I'll take a look and compare.

I'll do my homework and report back.

Thanks!

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Re: Sick of so-called tuners and tuningshops

Postby Shooting » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:12 pm

capske wrote:Sorry I don't have the stage 1 tuning file with the Original turbo.
I only have the Stage 2 with the hybrid or bigger turbo and the "Original" file i recreated from an original file with same hw and sw, but no stage 1 tuning...


What happened to it?
If you have a tune you're happy with it won't be a big leap to modify it with the new turbo spec.
If your tuner overwrote it then they will have a copy on file, since you payed for it they should give it to you.

wbr

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Re: Sick of so-called tuners and tuningshops

Postby capske » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:21 pm

Hi Shooting,

Thank you for your reply.

Yeah, well I suppose the just started from the stage 1 tuning to get to the Stage 2.
I did pay for it, but I didn't receive the file.

I'll ask for it, but i'm a bit affraid that they won't give it to me.

I'll keep you posted.

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Re: Sick of so-called tuners and tuningshops

Postby capske » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:26 pm

Hi guys,

I didn't asked for the stage 1 file yet, but that's on the to do list.
Meanwhile i got a bit more specs on the turbo.

The turbinewheel is aproximately 4 to 5 mm bigger, the exhaust port is standard and the turbo should have half a bar higher than the original turbo.

Sadly, still no time to make some mods to the car, but this weekend i'll give an update with some extra logging and mods.

Thanks guy's.

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Re: Sick of so-called tuners and tuningshops

Postby capske » Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:57 pm

Hi everybody,


I hope you're all doing fine.

I contacted the tuning shop and that kind of blew up in my face.
When asking for the stage 1 mapping they didn't want to give it to me.
I asked why cause i payed for it and they told me that it is locked and i couldn't read it anyway (B.S.)
Also the stated it's there intellectual property which they are not obliged to share.

So... yeah... i don't think i will get it... That made them start to ask questions into why and that if i wasn't happy with my mod i had to go back so they could modify it... but I passed obviously.

But that being said I at least have more info on the turbo as mentioned in my earlier post.

As I now that the turbo can handle 0.5 bar more i checked the original boost map and can see that the max requested boost is 2380 mbar. So at least they had a lucky gues on what the turbo could handle. I don't think the 20mbar will make the difference.

Meanwhile I went back into my logs form with the shop tuning because I knew i had a log from a good pull when i accelerated on feeling to have the best acceleration.

Also I did a log with the mods that ceecee proposed, for which i would like to thank him.

Now having done dose logs, from what i understood in al the posts i read is that I have to start to calculate the ideal injection quantity depending on the actual air-intake at that given rpm.

Then go calculating my IT regarding the new IQ.
Then the smoke and lambda maps?

Am i correct?

Thank you.

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