Isuzu GM 4EE2 1.7 Honda Opel CTDi CDTi, Bosch EDC15C7 thread

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Isuzu GM 4EE2 1.7 Honda Opel CTDi CDTi, Bosch EDC15C7 thread

Postby lyecon » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:05 pm

I do apologize for the bombastic title, but to the point.

Here I will collect and post infomation on the subjects mentioned. I intend to do some adjustments, advice, analysis of the function, technical discussions and such. There is very little information or understanding in general how anything in the ECU works, which is sadly a very, very big shame!

I intend to correct the injustice!

But first links to what has been said and (not) done. Help wanted:
opel-astra-1-7cdti-100hp-hw-0281011380-sw-1037a50301-t16308
opel-1-7dti-isuzu-engine-damos-mappacks-a2l-t13882
Honda Civic 1.7 CTDi ROMs 512kB
honda-civic-1-7-cdti-t15213
civic-1-7-8v-cdti-t14400

A simple calculator for EDC15C7 maps...
tuning-calculator-for-edc15c7-t7157
Injection amount duration extrapolation? Do not touch!
duration-map-edc15c7-extrapolation-t15222

Now, what have I found so far about the Bosch EDC15C7 unit is that there are at least 2 versions likely, one for CP1 pump with 512kB FLASH, and one for CP3 pump (that has an external fuel pump drowned in the fuel tank), that one has 1MB FLASH memory. I believe. Next, I believe that the 2005 1.7 CTDi Civic had the CP3, while the 2002 model year had the CP1 with 512kB FLASH, with no fuel tank trouble. I have yet to physically confirm that.

List of some other Bosch EDC15C7/EDC16C7 units in here:
(Now, see, there is some confusion, and please correct me everywhere, some EDC 15C7 / EDC 16C7 names may be switched.

Fiat Ducato 2.8jtd is surprisingly 512kB FLASH? It has no VGT, only wastegate, interesting.
edc15c7-many-questions-map-location-offset-t1586
Honda Accord 2005 2.2CDti, 1MB FLASH, supposedly ALSO Bosch EDC16C7
post7334?hilit=EDC16C7
Fiat Stilo 2004 1.9jtd manual edc16c7, 512kB FLASH
post27979?hilit=EDC16C7
Astra G Z17DTL 80kW, 512kB, :O
post27628?hilit=EDC16C7
Even Ford Ranger and Mazda (the same car), 1MB FLASH
post48233?hilit=EDC16C7
Astra H 1.7 74kW, 2008, EDC16C9???, 1MB FLASH
astra-h-1-7-74kw-edc16c9-t4299

When I think about it, maybe the 1MB FLASH was used, because 512kB FLASH memories were simply unavailable.

And now, I include what I found (yes, on this site as well), and that is 95% factory (Boschus) correct DAMOS. Thousands of variables to see. It is supposedly Honda (Isuzu 4EE2) 1.7 CTDi, but has 1MB Flash memory, unknown year, it should be EDC15C7. That really makes me wonder what the difference between EDC15C7 and EDC16C7 really is? And why are there 0.5MB and 1MB versions?
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Re: Isuzu GM 4EE2 1.7 Honda Opel CTDi CDTi, Bosch EDC15C7 th

Postby lyecon » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:07 am

Next step is: Sie muessen ein bisschen Deutsch sprechen! Ja?
bosch-edc-15c-functional-description-funktionsbeschreibung-t7391

Without that, you need to be very knowledgeable about how actually HW and software is built to comprehend the DAMOS data.
And if you are that way, with it, you'll be godlike.

Okay, more amateurish? Start here, but keep an eye on the DAMOS included, for it has a lot of what you seek.
edc15tuningguide-t10898

Some VERY important DOs and DON'Ts and Don't-you-ever's
good-guide-for-beginners-t13795

There you will see why trying to block off EGR without knowing what you do is bad. For example, in WinOLS, you see about 8 or 9 software blocs that deal with EGR and each of those is constantly running! Why would you need an EGR, you ask? Well, after starting a cold engine, and especially at idle, it helps a lot to heat it up faster (increasing longevity), and there are separate EGR constants just for a cold engine! Next, keeping the EGR somewhat operational at very light loads and very low RPM is also good for your health. In the Tuning guide, you'll see the 3D curve and its bad aspects, only at the very full throttle the EGR is off! In realistic thinking, it should be OFF at 80% throttle, and for many hot heads, at 50% throttle as well. But smelling with VW levels of NOx while standing is inadvisable for your health, so keep it there.

And there are many other books you should already have been made familiar with. Example...
bosch-books-handbooks-t8809

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Re: Isuzu GM 4EE2 1.7 Honda Opel CTDi CDTi, Bosch EDC15C7 th

Postby lyecon » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:14 pm

Use this site to identify, compare and actually SEE the injectors just by searching their numbers!
http://www.bosch-automotive-catalog.com/

What are the differences? Well, ouside, physically these four are interchangeable, the DENSO one is supposedly not (different length or something?? someone on youtube said so... can't compare)

The opening pressures and flows for all seem to be identical except of these differences:
Where 0 445 110 118 and 0 445 110 174 seem to be the same in all aspects, where the pilot injection is around 2mm^3, the idle injection is ~4.4mm^3, the normal injection is ~16mm^3, and the maximum, full blast is ~42mm^3.
The only flow difference is, that --174 and --118 have the full flow specified at "less than 44mm^3", and are used in 56kW engines, the 0 445 110 175 has the full flow specified at <52mm^3 !!! (even if the actual one in the test is just 44mm^3).

In other words, this and the Opel numbering leads me to believe that all of those injectors are interchangeable, just the --175 has higher maximum flow rate allowed, all three have the same characteristics apart of the maximum flow!

The 0 445 110 175 is in 74kW engines (Z17DTH), as far as the --082 injectors go, I have no data.
What I am assuming here is that the --175 has 7 injector holes, where the older models possibly have less than 7 injector holes? You know, more holes, better air-fuel mixing and such.

Injectors:
The first one was BOSCH 0 445 110 082, in the 2002 Honda 1.7 ctdi, 74-76kW
ISUZU number for that one is 8-97300-091-x (x is 0 or 1 or 2 or 3)
BOSCH rebuild/repair number is: no, they don't make that one!
Opel number: 984 336 34

BOSCH 0 445 110 118, Opel/GM Z17DTL, 59kW
BOSCH repair/rebuild: 0 986 435 082
ISUZU mumber: 8-97300-091-x (x is 0 or 1 or 2 or 3)
Opel number: 984 336 34

BOSCH 0 445 110 174, Opel/GM Z17DTL, 59kW
BOSCH repair/rebuild: 0 986 435 105
ISUZU mumber: 8-97363-811-x (x is 0 or 2 or 3)
Opel number: 984 336 35

BOSCH 0 445 110 175, Opel/GM Z17DTH, 74kW
BOSCH repair/rebuild: 0 986 435 089
ISUZU mumber: 8-97363-812-x (x is 0 or 2 or 3)
Opel number: 984 336 36


I never noticed the Honda injector has the same Opel number as the 59kW Opel... which means the Honda likely uses pulses that are too long? (and higher emissions).
See the increasing Opel numbers, --34, --35, --36 in a series, by which I judge the last injector will have the least soot emissions and shortest pulse requirements. By one photo it seems the --175 has 7 injector holes. One seller offers the --175 as a direct --174 replacement and their flow profiles are identical to any common flow range.

Which means: you can put the 0445110175 injector in any of those engines and get better performance/emissions.

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Re: Isuzu GM 4EE2 1.7 Honda Opel CTDi CDTi, Bosch EDC15C7 th

Postby lyecon » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:12 pm

The practical results.

The new type 7-hole injectors are nice. They sound completely different, like any other engine with 7-holes does.

Average fuel consumption on a full tank went down to 4.33L/100 km, driving mostly in neutral (using car inertia as KERS), maximum speeds of 120km/h.
Fuel consumption measured by tanking to the brim, stabilizing and marking the corrected travelled distance.


Ultra-high engine efficiency HOWTO:

It is very simple, first, you do not do the usual, decreasing friction, optimizing everything and gaining optimal efficiency of this or that... the first step is to extract all the enthalpy you can and convert it to some kind of mechanical energy; either way, DO NOT LET ENTHALPY ENTER THE EXHAUST PIPE!

"WHAT?", you ask? Simple: Enthalpy is heat, heat that can be converted to any kind of useful work. If you let it go to waste, there is no return from that!

There was an unintentional experiment with a frankenturbo: an old VW 1.9 TDi (VP pump) had a problem with its turbo, so a replacement was found on a junkyard. The replacement was from a Golf GT and much larger than the original. So, machining was performed on the original exhaust manifold to make it fit and some obstructions cleaned as well. It was a non-VNT type.

The result is that the car now can do 4.2L/100km, while travelling at 120km/h on a highway for 800km stretch.

How? Simple: the turbine is much larger and has much larger expansion coefficient, so the exhaust gases leave to the exhaust pipe cooler, with much less thermal energy than before. The bad side-effect is that at over 3000rpm, you are prone to "engine error" due to the limit compressor pressure reached. That could be corrected, but the owner doesn't care. The EGR may be blocked as well, I don't recall excatly.


Now, returning back to my Honda/Isuzu diesel, yes, the VNT now keeps the nozzles on high-pressure mode for much longer, as there isn't as much thermal energy as it used to be with the leaky old 5-hole injectors (no overfuelling), thus the whiney turbine sound keeps on for much longer while accelerating.

The next step will be programming much higher turbocompressor pressures, forcing the VNT into maximum pressure mode for most of the time, causing better/higher energy extraction out of the exhaust gases. There is a benefit in programming less EGR for certain drive modes, as the turbine will get more gas to drive it, and we know turbines don't work well with too little exhaust gas flow to drive them.

I'm thinking about adding forced fan on the air intercooler to get more air into the engine; this technically decreases efficiency on account of extracting heat that could do work, but on the other hand increases efficiency by lowering heat losses in the engine and allowing leaner fuel mixtures; plus, it increases the "bang" you get.

There are other mods imagined that I may try in the future as well. But only time will tell.

P.S. you can control the forced fan by an easy trick: use the standard NPT-type pressure trigger, like the one that checks the oil pressure. Say, air pressure over 0.3 or 0.5-bar will turn on the fans :)

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Re: Isuzu GM 4EE2 1.7 Honda Opel CTDi CDTi, Bosch EDC15C7 th

Postby lyecon » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:59 pm

small updates.

average fuel consumption:
4.335L/100km first full tank: top speed 120km/h, mostly accelerate and glide mode.
3.99 L/100km I tried not to drive too fast. top speed 110km/h
4.37 L/100km added 0.3L dexos2 oil, combustion sound change, more pull from low, low RPM, consumption seemed low, but trips were very short and mostly in gear.
3.84 L/100km painted exhaust and such, inflated tires to 2.5 bar (were ~1.5!!), driven mostly long trips (6x 100-150 km), mostly in gear, low accelleration mostly, includes urban areas and the city. Acceleration and drive tuned to a specific engine sound. Poor winter tires squeal on the summer roads.

The best oil would be Mobil 1 ESP 0W-40, which is dexos2 certified.
A similar one 5W-30 is almost identical in all viscosity parameters (a Mobil brand), which is funny, the differences are only few percent. Seeing how 0.3L changed the 5L 5W-40 cheap fill I have in left me very amazed.

Maybe the Metabond Eco I had in the last oil also helps a bit. Well, it surely does, I just don't know how much.


And all of that without any chiptuning at all... can you imagine what it can do with a little bit of software tweaking?! My goal is consistent, effortless 3.6, 3.5, 3.4L/100km. It seems even realistic, watching these numbers now.

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Re: Isuzu GM 4EE2 1.7 Honda Opel CTDi CDTi, Bosch EDC15C7 th

Postby Deman » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:40 pm

very interesting, thank you.

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Re: Isuzu GM 4EE2 1.7 Honda Opel CTDi CDTi, Bosch EDC15C7 th

Postby jmanisn1 » Sat May 04, 2019 9:55 pm

Great infor for my project!

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Re: Isuzu GM 4EE2 1.7 Honda Opel CTDi CDTi, Bosch EDC15C7 th

Postby 5h1ll » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:03 am

the honda and opel injectors are definately different....there are two variations to the doi map, which would suggest different nozzle design.
what interests me most, is the honda with vnt and opel z17dtl with wastegate, both have n75 duty cycle higher in the lower rpm, both have the same p.i.d. intervention values, so i am trying to find the part of the file that has a turbo switch or some other switch that swaps the n75 values, because the n75 valve its self, is a normaly closed valve.

also i have seen many with cp3 pump earlier than 2003, i am trying to find one with a cp1 pump so i can get hold of the software on there. all civic and all astra mk 4 are to my knowledge 512kb never seen a 1mb file from this ecu ecc15c7

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Re: Isuzu GM 4EE2 1.7 Honda Opel CTDi CDTi, Bosch EDC15C7 th

Postby 5h1ll » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:47 am

the honda injectors use a slightly different spray angle to the opel injectors......now i want to open one and look at the combustion chamber designs

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